Curse

Ensign · May 26, 2009, 12:30 AM // 00:30

The characters that beat up Mind Blast / Distortion Eles are not honorable. Therefore the build is too good.

Perfected Shadow · May 26, 2009, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animate

The fact that people think the E/Me are too powerful because of D I S T O R T I O N is really very, very, VERY sad

Why not allow eles to be able to have competitive damage? What I was thinking was they shouldn't have both damage and defense, hence nerfing distortion for them. Yes I realized there are other variants, but are those as successful as e/me?

Wish Swiftdeath · May 26, 2009, 12:40 AM // 00:40

I don't see this as much of an issue in GvG, however it's a huge issue in TA... multiple mind blast ele's bring ALOT of damage to the party, most monks don't bring prot spirit/spirit bond so it's just a case of spamming fire skills till the monks run out of energy,

Meanwhile only the magebane and and a war with magehunters (if you're running it) can actually touch the ele's which i think is a huge problem.

*lemming* · May 26, 2009, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

Dual ele split is the strongest build in the meta atm.

Actually, hexes is.

Regulus X · May 26, 2009, 01:59 AM // 01:59

I like all the opinions thusfar. It's good that ya'll voice yourselves. C=

The way I see it, Distortion + M.Blast + Attunement/AoR + Glowing = OP'd permablock

Other variants are FAR WEAKER than with Distortion! 75% >>>>>>>>>>>>50% ANY DAY.

There's no real way to justify your reasons tbh.. and all I'm seeing so far is people (who I'm sure abuse of the E/Me build) crying for us to shut up and not wish for this OP'd build to become nerfed. If 50% of your team or greater is E/Me in 8v8 or 4v4.. HOUSTON, WE HAS A PROBLEM.

E/Me is too good, and those who oppose (in my view) simply wish to be able to continue abusing this build to reap gains in PvP mindlessly. In TA, all I ever see is E/Me x2-3 and Me/Any & Mo/Any and if you're in a balanced team with two melee, necro and Monk, all you'll see as a meleer is *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* in yellow text.

Not OP'd? Again, if you say "not", that just tells me you're one of the E/Me abusers who can't get enough of this OP'd template that's ruining PvP.

Expherious · May 26, 2009, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Backfire?

12characters

Seraphim of Chaos · May 26, 2009, 02:59 AM // 02:59

needs more whirling axe

Perfected Shadow · May 26, 2009, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

There's no real way to justify your reasons tbh

I argue that distortion could be nerfed for eles instead of mind blast. My reason is that eles should be allowed to have decent damage, but not strong defense as well.

icedwhitemocha · May 26, 2009, 05:29 AM // 05:29

But guys, you can Diversion it... therefore it is perfectly balanced.

GourangaPizza · May 26, 2009, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

Well it's distortion that's the main problem isn't it? So imo nerf Distortion and don't go overboard by nerfing MB as well...

Haha... you're so funny. /sarcasm ends

I don't think the problem is with Distortion but the obscene amounts of energy gained by the E/Me build to power Distortion. They should just update Aura of Restoration's functionality with "... and you cannot use stances."

scruffy · May 26, 2009, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

I argue that distortion could be nerfed for eles instead of mind blast. My reason is that eles should be allowed to have decent damage, but not strong defense as well.

the problem with this approach is if you nerf xx defense skill they will just replace it with the second best option until you have nerfed every possible self defense skill in the game, whereas if you just nerf the damage output you cut the problem at its source

i think anet should buff energy denial along with nerfing mind blast eles, i think they also need to find a way to promote warriors bringing the high adrenaline costing attacks like backbreaker and final thrust

Jeydra · May 26, 2009, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

Other variants are FAR WEAKER than with Distortion! 75% >>>>>>>>>>>>50% ANY DAY.

There's no real way to justify your reasons tbh.. and all I'm seeing so far is people (who I'm sure abuse of the E/Me build) crying for us to shut up and not wish for this OP'd build to become nerfed. If 50% of your team or greater is E/Me in 8v8 or 4v4.. HOUSTON, WE HAS A PROBLEM.

Say what? Blind = 90% miss (not block) >>>>>> 75% block any day.

There are so many options to take out an E/Me Mind Blaster with. I listed them earlier in the thread. Shattering Assault takes out Mind Blasters with little problems. So does Backfire / VoR. Strip Enchant. Power Block. Caster damage. Even Magebane Shot can force the Elementalist to play more conservatively. What's stopping you from running them? If you are so convinced of an E/Me Mind Blaster's invulnerability, why don't you try it in RA where build variety is such that the counters to you do exist?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RegulusX

E/Me is too good, and those who oppose (in my view) simply wish to be able to continue abusing this build to reap gains in PvP mindlessly. In TA, all I ever see is E/Me x2-3 and Me/Any & Mo/Any and if you're in a balanced team with two melee, necro and Monk, all you'll see as a meleer is *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* *block* in yellow text.

Not OP'd? Again, if you say "not", that just tells me you're one of the E/Me abusers who can't get enough of this OP'd template that's ruining PvP.

Anything that beats balanced must be overpowered. True / false?

Far as I can tell, your answer to the above question is true (you even alluded to it: "if you're running balanced ... "). My answer however is an empathic no, as, I bet, would be yours when faced with a blunt question like this one instead of dressed up in the guise of E/Me's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

I argue that distortion could be nerfed for eles instead of mind blast. My reason is that eles should be allowed to have decent damage, but not strong defense as well.

What do you call this:

14 Air, 13 Energy Storage

Blinding Flash
Lightning Orb
Lightning Hammer
Enervating Charge
Aura of Restoration
Air Attunement
Elemental Attunement
Res Sig

Let's see: more damage than E/Me Mind Blasters ... check. More defense than E/Me Mind Blasters ... also check. Ability to outnuke E/Me Mind Blasters ... present. Ability to defend your teammates from opponent physicals ... yup, there as well. Superoverpowered and ruining PvP ... nope.

Explain. The way I see it, the above build isn't overpowered because the tools to counter it (DShot Elemental Attunement) already exists in the metagame, while the tools to counter E/Me Mind Blasters (as listed above) do not.

scruffy · May 26, 2009, 08:31 AM // 08:31

builds with VoR mesmers defending against mind blast eles cant kill at main team, same goes with pblock mesmers, builds with sins get beaten 8v8 by mind blast eles so its just a role reversal, sending back the ranger is viable but they will just collapse after getting low enough unless one of them gets crip trained which he shouldn't unless he has bad awareness.

Vanquisher · May 26, 2009, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Anything that beats balanced must be overpowered. True / false?

You keep saying this and it's rather silly.

I don't like the template (and I play it pretty damn often). I like that Ele's have a viable source of damage output, but even so it gets destroyed in any stand battle thanks to interrupts being so strong. Thus the damage is forced to split, where it's incredibly problematic. I don't really mind the whole block concept. You can run stuff that let's you kill them perfectly, and one of my favourite pieces of build wars was when Te slotted in Warrior's Cunning vs. EvIL to deal with Ward Melee, and when Jang ran Death's Charge/Way of the Fox Hammer to just power straight through any block (and solo'd Trex).

The problem I have with the template is that it doesn't suffer from threat when it comes to killing NPC's. That simply shouldn't be the case, I'd argue. Sure you can send stuff back, but that isn't really the point either thanks to the tie breaker we have. If you start collapsing on their MB's and killing them, cool. But if they've already notched up a bit of Lord damage without any significant threat from the NPC's, which you'll then have to content with when you try and get some, that's where one of the failures comes in.

As an aside, it's my opinion that without outside sources of healing, 2 characters shouldn't be able to take down a Guild Lord without dying unless they're spamming KD's or have Blind/Weakness, and even then ideally one would die and need to be ressed. Characters certainly shouldn't be able to solo them in a relatively short amount of time. With a Mind Blast you bypass any form of death to NPC's and can just use the terrain to not even have to trigger Distortion. If you lose the Distortion it's still adequate to run Blinding Flash or Featherfoot/D-Touch also.

Jeydra · May 26, 2009, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor

builds with VoR mesmers defending against mind blast eles cant kill at main team, same goes with pblock mesmers, builds with sins get beaten 8v8 by mind blast eles so its just a role reversal, sending back the ranger is viable but they will just collapse after getting low enough unless one of them gets crip trained which he shouldn't unless he has bad awareness.

I think you're missing the point. With the two Fire Eles off ganking, two Warriors + 1 Ranger isn't going to overpower whatever is still at stand, so you can't kill either. That addresses the VoR Mesmer case. With Assassins, you can't fight the dual Fire Ele build 8v8 as well. But then the dual Fire Ele build can't fight (say) the dual Para build 8v8 as well, yet it doesn't make the Fire Elementalists any less overpowered does it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

The problem I have with the template is that it doesn't suffer from threat when it comes to killing NPC's. That simply shouldn't be the case, I'd argue. Sure you can send stuff back, but that isn't really the point either thanks to the tie breaker we have. If you start collapsing on their MB's and killing them, cool. But if they've already notched up a bit of Lord damage without any significant threat from the NPC's, which you'll then have to content with when you try and get some, that's where one of the failures comes in.

As an aside, it's my opinion that without outside sources of healing, 2 characters shouldn't be able to take down a Guild Lord without dying unless they're spamming KD's or have Blind/Weakness, and even then ideally one would die and need to be ressed. Characters certainly shouldn't be able to solo them in a relatively short amount of time. With a Mind Blast you bypass any form of death to NPC's and can just use the terrain to not even have to trigger Distortion. If you lose the Distortion it's still adequate to run Blinding Flash or Featherfoot/D-Touch also.

E/Me Mind Blasters can take out NPCs without dying yes. But then so can the E/Any Dual Attunements bar I posted above. Actually it can take out NPCs better since it relies on Blind not block (E/Me is vulnerable to Warrior's Cunning on the Knights after all). There are no lack of bars that can do it. A E/Me Terratank with Stoneflesh Aura, Armor of Earth and Sliver Armor can solo the entire Lord pit without dying. What's your point?

(That's a case of reductio ad absurdum by the way. The E/Me Terratank isn't going to see PvP play for the obvious reason that it's useless for anything other than farming NPCs. Not the point though, it can do what you said no build should be able to do. Means you have to modify the criteria for what you call "overpowered".)

I think also that pretty much any character (aside from Monks and such characters with no damage) can take out the entire Lord room without dying, even without self-heals. It just takes time. The only way I can see such that your aside can come to fruition is to diversify the NPCs in the Lord room to include enchantment removal, stance removal, interrupts and so on, which I doubt is going to happen.

JR · May 26, 2009, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Ridiculous energy engines have always been an issue in Guild Wars. If you are going to balance skills by energy cost, don't trivialize energy. The same goes for cast time and recharge.

tigros · May 26, 2009, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

The problem I have with the template is that it doesn't suffer from threat when it comes to killing NPC's. That simply shouldn't be the case, I'd argue. [...] But if they've already notched up a bit of Lord damage without any significant threat from the NPC's, which you'll then have to content with when you try and get some, that's where one of the failures comes in.

Say hello to whatever kind of ranger with a flatbow? True, it depends on the map, most of the times, but it's still a viable option to clean out npcs and reach the lord without being really hindered...

kedde · May 26, 2009, 03:15 PM // 15:15

But not in a short time, not the NPC's or the Lord if you want the character to be useful to the team in any other way.

You can run anything else that can solo all the npc's, but MB eles lose the least and do the most compared to anything else that also needs to be useful elsewhere.
They do it too well.

scruffy · May 26, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I think you're missing the point. With the two Fire Eles off ganking, two Warriors + 1 Ranger isn't going to overpower whatever is still at stand, so you can't kill either. That addresses the VoR Mesmer case. With Assassins, you can't fight the dual Fire Ele build 8v8 as well. But then the dual Fire Ele build can't fight (say) the dual Para build 8v8 as well, yet it doesn't make the Fire Elementalists any less overpowered does it?

no the point is you're reaching too far up your ass for a counter to mindblast eles the simple way to beat them is to add warriors cunning on your warrior and take crippling shot on your ranger and then maybe even take a snare on your flag runner instead of energy blast

I Angra I · May 26, 2009, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Distortion isn't a problem. The template is overpowered because of mind blast and aura of restoration giving it infinite energy. Change mind blast back to how it was before, and maybe nerf aura of restoration a bit in some way.